00:01:44: <shachaf> You can take kmc out of #haskell, but you can't take #haskell out of kmc('s surroundings).
00:03:04: <zzo38> I have read that already
00:03:17: <RocketJSquirrel> Apparently there was a 90's American/Canadian cartoon series called "The Peer Pressure Show for Kids"
00:03:32: <RocketJSquirrel> I find the title amazing, but can't find any other information on it.
00:08:56: <pikhq_> And I certainly didn't see it.
00:09:39: <kmc> indeed
00:09:41: <RocketJSquirrel> It's also possible that somebody snuck it into a list as a joke, and it's just a phantom show that's floated about the interwebs ever since.
00:10:30: <kmc> the altered state of drugachusetts
00:11:03: <zzo38> At least, I understand monads better by seeing >>= as a shortcut to use fmap and join together; other people might understand it better the other way around.
00:12:03: <myname> i understanf a >>= b as x = a; b x
00:12:05: <myname> erm
00:12:08: <myname> x <- a
00:12:14: <zzo38> Still, Kleisli morphisms is another valid way to do it.
00:12:17: <shachaf> zzo38: But nobody understands Barrier Monads better than you.
00:13:00: <zzo38> shachaf: Much later after designing Barrier monad, I discovered, on paper, that it is really the free monad of the indexed store comonad.
00:13:55: <zzo38> myname: Yes it is the same as do { x <- a; b x; } in case you prefer to think of it like that; but I don't like do-notation.
00:14:51: <myname> (x <- a) >> b x :p
00:15:06: <zzo38> myname: That doesn't make sense.
00:15:23: <myname> why?
00:15:53: <shachaf> myname: "<-" is part of do-notation; it's meaningless on its own.
00:18:32: <oerjan> beware the ides of march
00:19:01: <myname> :O
00:22:32: <pikhq_> That championofbirds interview is quite strange.
00:23:40: <RocketJSquirrel> pikhq_: NORLY
00:24:03: <oerjan> ORLY A GNARLY NOVELTY
00:24:45: <zzo38> I invented some optional rules for D&D, where there is an age penalty for being resurrected, and which the alignment entries in creature stat blocks are only superstition (with a few exceptions: angels, demons, devils, normal animals with NN align, and nongood mindless undead).
00:25:12: <zzo38> Using both of these rules makes the game more interesting in my opinion.
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01:33:32: <RocketJSquirrel> I have come to the tragic conclusion that The Peer Pressure Show for Kids does not actually exist.
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03:11:38: <pikhq> Huh. You could cite Magic against the patent on tapping that WotC has.
03:11:56: <pikhq> As Magic was released over 2 years prior to the patent's filing date.
03:13:37: <kmc> is that how prior art works
03:13:42: <ais523> I'm not convinced the patent on tapping is enforceable anyway
03:13:45: <ais523> kmc: in the US, yes
03:14:00: <ais523> but the fact that it exists is sufficient to let their lawyers scare people
03:14:25: <pikhq> kmc: In the US, yes, prior publication more than a year prior to filing suffices to estabilish that the patent is invalid.
03:15:02: <pikhq> However, because the patent office does not do due dilegence on the filing (they take years, and rubber-stamp), in practice you can patent anything.
03:15:13: <pikhq> And the US is in practice a money-wins jurisdiction.
03:20:01: <NihilistDandy> cheater_: DACHGESCHOSS
03:20:05: <zzo38> The patent may expire in a few years.
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03:20:47: <NihilistDandy> Doesn't WotC own Magic now, anyway?
03:21:06: <pikhq> Always have.
03:21:15: <pikhq> zzo38: Expires 2015.
03:21:29: <zzo38> I think the patent has Richard Garfield's name on it?
03:21:52: <pikhq> Inventor is Richard Garfield, assignee is WotC.
03:22:14: <NihilistDandy> I'm confused how a product that WotC owns could be used to undermine one of its own patents. Then again, I know shit all about patent law
03:22:45: <pikhq> NihilistDandy: If something is published before your patent is filed, it invalidates your patent. Even if you are the publisher.
03:22:52: <NihilistDandy> Ah
03:22:54: <NihilistDandy> That's odd
03:22:54: <pikhq> That is a fundamental concept in US patent law.
03:23:02: <NihilistDandy> A fundamental oddity
03:23:14: <NihilistDandy> But yes, it makes sense when you put it that way
03:23:36: <MDude> Actually, I tihnk if you publish it, you can still file within a year.
03:23:36: <lambdabot> MDude: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
03:24:41: * MDude slowly turns his head and just stares at lambadablot blankly for a few seconds.
03:24:57: <NihilistDandy> lambdabot doesn't understand dramatic tension
03:24:58: <zzo38> lambadablot?
03:25:24: <pikhq> MDude: Yeah, but this patent was filed *2* years late. :)
03:26:15: <MDude> Lamb dab ot?
03:26:59: <MDude> pikhq: I see. That is late.
03:27:15: <MDude> What patent are you talkign about, anyway?
03:27:27: <pikhq> MDude: The tapping patent.
03:27:50: <MDude> I tohught they had a patent on collectable cards in general somehow.
03:27:54: <MDude> *thought
03:28:01: <pikhq> No, it was a patent on tapping.
03:29:20: <MDude> What wonderous things await us once anyone can card tap.
03:31:22: <MDude> 'Lambdabot: check the messages
03:31:33: <MDude> Oh wait you told me how to check them.
03:38:39: <Sgeo> tswett, monqy has been UPDATEd.
03:42:20: <zzo38> TeXnicard is already 167 pages long and is still not complete. It is a very complicated program with many features, a terse syntax, and no GUI (one of its features is it is supposed to have no GUI).
03:45:52: <MDude> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matroid - I now want to find a way to use analogy as an excuse to call something "mathematical metroids".
03:51:08: <MDude> Yeah, matroids seem like some pretty weird things. I think I'll like them. :p
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06:19:30: <quintopia> zzo38?
06:29:04: <zzo38> quintopia: Did you have a question for (or about) me?
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07:16:13: <CEZW> Im getting nude look at me here http://sexylili.hpage.com/
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07:18:26: <ais523> since when do we get spambots in /here/?
07:19:44: <quintopia> zzo38: my connection keeps dropping. yes i have a question for you.
07:20:38: <quintopia> zzo38: what is the easiest way to group things in TeX so they get laid out normally except that pages will only break between them and not in the middle of them?
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07:29:55: <zzo38> quintopia: Put them inside of a \vbox is one way.
07:30:12: <quintopia> hmm
07:30:51: <zzo38> However that won't make the glue inside of the box necessarily correspond to the glue outside of the box.
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07:34:07: <Sgeo> ais523, I've been here for a while. I'm basically a spambot for PSOX.
07:35:02: <ais523> I thought we mocked that out of you
07:35:46: <Sgeo> Among the bot's weaknesses are continuing a humorous line of conversation.
07:36:09: <Sgeo> If an unexpected reply occurs, the bot is unable to successfully respond.
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07:46:26: <zzo38> quintopia: Does it work for what you are doing?
07:53:36: <fizzie> @tell ais523 Maybe the spammers have been discouraged by problems with spamming the new wiki, and have decided to bring it here instead.
07:53:36: <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
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09:28:48: <ais523> zzo38: what computational class is bLOOP? Do you know?
09:28:48: <lambdabot> ais523: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
09:28:52: <ais523> @messages
09:28:53: <lambdabot> fizzie said 1h 35m 16s ago: Maybe the spammers have been discouraged by problems with spamming the new wiki, and have decided to bring it here instead.
09:30:23: <zzo38> ais523: If you mean BlooP, then yes I know, but I don't know what it is called.
09:30:44: <ais523> yes, that's what I meant
09:30:46: <ais523> and, ah, OK
09:30:53: <ais523> I sort-of know what class it is too, but don't know the name either
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10:01:44: <mroman> o_O @TeXnicard
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11:55:57: <oerjan> <ais523> zzo38: what computational class is bLOOP? Do you know?
11:56:15: <oerjan> primitive recursive functions is what i heard, and wikipedia agrees
11:56:46: <myname> never thought that the hardest part on implementing fibonacci would be output of numbers greater than 10
11:56:55: <oerjan> heh :P
11:57:19: <oerjan> well the rest _is_ just addition and looping.
11:57:20: <fizzie> ^fib
11:57:21: <fungot> ...
11:57:29: <myname> it is
11:57:34: <oerjan> periods?
11:57:39: <fizzie> Newlines, I think.
11:57:45: <fizzie> ^show fib
11:57:45: <fungot> >+10>+>+[[+5[>+8<-]>.<+6[>-8<-]+<3]>.>>[[-]<[>+<-]>>[<2+>+>-]<[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>[-]>+>+<3-[>+<-]]]]]]]]]]]+>>>]<3][]
11:57:46: <myname> maybe i should at "output as integer"
11:57:55: <fizzie> Probably the +10 at start.
11:58:38: <myname> *add
11:58:39: <myname> <_<
12:03:29: <oerjan> myname: otoh Underload's fibonacci just outputs in unary as *'s. although there _is_ a decimal printing method in the other examples.
12:03:40: <oerjan> ^ul (()(*))(~:^:S*a~^a~!~*~:(/)S^):^
12:03:41: <fungot> */*/**/***/*****/********/*************/*********************/**********************************/*******************************************************/*****************************************************************************************/********************************************************************************* ...too much output!
12:04:01: <myname> unary output is a nice idea
12:04:08: <ais523> unary output is easy :)
12:04:18: <myname> that's why, yes
12:05:53: <myname> i don't want to output something like 10! unary, though
12:13:24: <oerjan> ^ul (:(1)*(:(2)*(:(3)*(:(4)*(:(5)*(:(6)*(:(7)*(:(8)*(:(9)*(!~:^)))))))))):(~^~(~a~*~a~*)~a*^:(0)*)~a*~:(a(:^)*())~*a(:^)*~()~(0)~(~!^)(:*)::::****:*^^!S!!!
12:13:25: <fungot> 1024
12:15:24: <ais523> oerjan: hmm, that decimal conversion code looks neater than mine
12:15:37: <fizzie> ^bf +++++[->++++++>++<<]>++>>>+[[-<+<.>>>>+<<]<[->+<]>>[-<+>]>[-<+>]<<<<<.>>>]
12:15:37: <fungot> . . .. ... ..... ........ ............. ..................... .................................. ....................................................... ...................................................... ...
12:15:55: <ais523> where's the division by 10 done? I can't even see a constant 10 in there anywhere
12:16:01: <oerjan> ^ul (:(1)*(:(2)*(:(3)*(:(4)*(:(5)*(:(6)*(:(7)*(:(8)*(:(9)*(!~:^)))))))))):(~^~(~a~*~a~*)~a*^:(0)*)~a*~:(a(:^)*())~*a(:^)*~()~(0)~(~!^~:S~)(~!^)(:*)::::****:*^
12:16:05: <oerjan> oops
12:17:45: <oerjan> ais523: the deepest (!~:^) for the digit list applies an increment to the higher level digits
12:17:53: <oerjan> or something like that
12:18:31: <oerjan> note that as mentioned on the underload page, this works by generating _all_ numerals in sequence, and printing the one you end up with
12:20:44: <oerjan> it's like a generator that you can run as many times as you want
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12:23:52: <oerjan> ^ul (:(1)*(:(2)*(:(3)*(:(4)*(:(5)*(:(6)*(:(7)*(:(8)*(:(9)*(!~:^)))))))))):(~^~(~a~*~a~*)~a*^:(0)*)~a*~:(a(:^)*())~*a(:^)*~()~(0)~(~!^~:(,)*S~)(:*)::::****:*^^
12:23:52: <fungot> 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21,22,23,24,25,26,27,28,29,30,31,32,33,34,35,36,37,38,39,40,41,42,43,44,45,46,47,48,49,50,51,52,53,54,55,56,57,58,59,60,61,62,63,64,65,66,67,68,69,70,71,72,73,74,75,76,77,78,79,80,81,82,83,84,85,86,87,88,89,90,91,92,93,94,95,96,97,98,99,100,101,102,103,104,105,106,107,108, ...too much output!
12:24:26: <oerjan> there you go, printing each string after generating.
12:25:50: <oerjan> ^ul (:(1)*(:(2)*(:(3)*(:(4)*(:(5)*(:(6)*(:(7)*(:(8)*(:(9)*(!~:^)))))))))):(~^~(~a~*~a~*)~a*^:(0)*)~a*~:(a(:^)*())~*a(:^)*~()~(0)(:(,)*S!^~)(:*)::::****:*^^
12:25:50: <fungot> 0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21,22,23,24,25,26,27,28,29,30,31,32,33,34,35,36,37,38,39,40,41,42,43,44,45,46,47,48,49,50,51,52,53,54,55,56,57,58,59,60,61,62,63,64,65,66,67,68,69,70,71,72,73,74,75,76,77,78,79,80,81,82,83,84,85,86,87,88,89,90,91,92,93,94,95,96,97,98,99,100,101,102,103,104,105,106,107,10 ...too much output!
12:29:45: <myname> that "just generate everything and pick what you need" could work for me :o
12:30:53: <oerjan> hm would it? it depends on having something to make lists and strings with.
12:31:58: <myname> well, lists would be a lot easier
12:32:21: <myname> okay, it should work for a maximum number of decimals
12:32:32: <oerjan> yes that should work
12:33:08: <myname> maybe i'll think of a more generic version later
12:33:42: <oerjan> as ais523 alluded to, you usually want to do division by 10.
12:34:00: <myname> i know
12:34:27: <myname> should even be possible
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12:47:45: <oerjan> ais523: see logs
12:48:06: * ais523 looks
12:49:18: <ais523> ah, right, it's a decimal increment
12:51:10: <ais523> 10 is ::*:*:**, right?
12:51:34: <oerjan> ^ul (:(1)*(:(2)*(:(3)*(:(4)*(:(5)*(:(6)*(:(7)*(:(8)*(:(9)*(!~:^)))))))))):(~^~(~a~*~a~*)~a*^:(0)*)~a*~:(a(:^)*())~*a(:^)*~()~(0)(()(!^~))((:(^!^:(,)*S)~a*^:^~!a~^*a*)~a*^:^):^
12:51:36: <fungot> 0,1,2,4,7,12,20,33,54,88,143,232,376,609,986,1596, ...out of time!
12:51:39: <oerjan> oops
12:52:04: <oerjan> i think that's 9
12:52:31: <ais523> err, right, it is
12:52:32: <oerjan> :::**::*** would be 10
12:52:51: <ais523> or alternatively :*::*:**
12:53:05: <ais523> actually, no, I think your 10 is also a 9
12:53:28: <ais523> ^ul (a)::*:*:**S(b):::**::***S(c):*::*:**S
12:53:28: <fungot> aaaaaaaaabbbbbbbbbbcccccccccc
12:53:35: <oerjan> ^ul (x):::**::***S
12:53:35: <fungot> xxxxxxxxxx
12:53:38: <oerjan> nope
12:53:48: <ais523> OK, both our 10s are correct
12:53:55: <ais523> oh, yours is 3*3+1
12:54:04: <ais523> and mine is 2*(2*2+1)
12:54:28: <ais523> at least mine's shorter :)
12:54:35: <oerjan> curses
12:54:48: <oerjan> @oeis 0,1,2,4,7,12,20,33,54
12:54:54: <lambdabot> Fibonacci numbers - 1.
12:54:54: <lambdabot> [0,0,1,2,4,7,12,20,33,54,88,143,232,376,609,986,1596,2583,4180,6764,10945,17...
12:55:01: <oerjan> oh.
12:55:15: <oerjan> off by one error :P
12:55:20: <ais523> yes
13:00:12: <oerjan> ^ul (:(1)*(:(2)*(:(3)*(:(4)*(:(5)*(:(6)*(:(7)*(:(8)*(:(9)*(!~:^)))))))))):(~^~(~a~*~a~*)~a*^:(0)*)~a*~:(a(:^)*())~*a(:^)*~()~(0)((!^~)())((:(~:(,)*S~^!^)~a*^:^~!a~^*a*)~a*^:^):^
13:00:13: <fungot> 0,1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21,34,55,89,144,233,377,610,987,1597, ...out of time!
13:00:18: <oerjan> yay
13:01:34: <ion> What’s ul?
13:02:51: <ais523> underload
13:02:56: <ais523> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Underload
13:04:13: <oerjan> i just added that program
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15:32:44: <elliott> "Announcing the Yesod Platform"
15:32:55: <elliott> I think Yesod are suffering from the delusion that they own Haskell.
15:33:16: <elliott> Oh, it's just a Cabal package.
15:33:18: <elliott> What a bad name.
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17:03:13: <elliott> hi calamari
17:03:43: <calamari> hi elliott
17:04:59: <RocketJSquirrel> hi people who use lower case and no punctuation
17:05:22: <elliott> calamari: can I convince you to release EsoAPI 1.0 Specification under CC0? it was on [[EsoAPI]] for four years before Graue removed it as a copyvio (and updated the link), and I don't want to have to remove six revisions from the history :(
17:05:25: <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: hi
17:06:10: <calamari> so I exported a doc from libeoffice and printed the pdf and the letters look like the latex logo.. what am I doing wrong
17:06:27: <elliott> wrong? sounds like it automatically made your document better
17:06:40: <calamari> what do you mean? that looks like crap
17:06:49: <calamari> the letters are different sizes and offsets
17:06:53: <elliott> you dissin' the latex logo?!?!?!
17:07:14: <calamari> yes ;)
17:09:53: <calamari> what's CC0?
17:10:28: <RocketJSquirrel> Public domain where possible, and as near to public domain as you can get where impossible.
17:12:04: <elliott> calamari: http://creativecommons.org/publicdomain/zero/1.0/, what the wiki is released under
17:12:31: <calamari> I'm not sure what license I released it under, but my intent would be something like gpl
17:12:57: <elliott> yeah, the problem is that anything other than CC0 means I have to purge a few years of history from that page :(
17:14:03: <calamari> up to you
17:14:11: <calamari> but yeah GPL
17:14:44: <elliott> calamari: well, no, it's not up to me - if it's under the GPL, then I'm breaking the law by knowingly leaving those revisions up
17:14:46: <calamari> can't it be in there as long as they link to it?
17:15:06: <elliott> no, the wiki can only contain public domain content
17:15:17: <calamari> that's your restriction, not mine
17:15:33: <elliott> err, are you telling me to relicense the wiki as GPL?
17:15:40: <calamari> so it doesn't create a legal problem coming from me
17:15:52: <elliott> that would be possible, but (a) the GPL is for software, not documents, and (b) I pledged to keep it public domain as it has been for 7 years
17:16:53: <calamari> okay well I'm not a lawyer so I won't pretend to understand it
17:17:27: <calamari> anyhow, hope that answers your question?
17:17:46: <elliott> yes, i'll delete the revisions...
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17:18:15: <elliott> fwiw since it was up there without any license notice for a few years, whatever damage might be done has already been done i.e. people using it against the terms of the gpl
17:18:23: <Taneb> Hello!
17:18:39: <calamari> I guess if there was no license, then technically it's not even gpl
17:19:07: <calamari> guess that means my spec was not free :( oops
17:19:43: <elliott> well i took your statement above as licensing it under GPL
17:19:48: <RocketJSquirrel> Taneb: Have you read the link in the topic?
17:19:50: <RocketJSquirrel> Taneb: IT WILL CHANGE YOUR LIFE
17:19:54: <Taneb> I have not
17:19:56: <elliott> since as the copyright holder you obviously can license it under anything at any time
17:20:01: <Taneb> The logs one or the birds one?
17:20:14: <pikhq> You can, in fact, license it CC0 at free will.
17:20:30: <RocketJSquirrel> Taneb: Although you ought to take the time to read the entire logged history of this channel at some point, I was referring to the championofbirds one.
17:20:34: <elliott> CC0 isn't technically a license
17:22:16: <pikhq> I think in some jurisdictions it acts as one.
17:22:35: <RocketJSquirrel> More accurately, it /includes/ one for those jurisdiction, but the document itself is not a license.
17:22:40: <pikhq> Okay, true.
17:22:59: <elliott> Right, it's a statement of release into the public domain, plus a license for when the former doesn't work.
17:23:02: <pikhq> The document itself is a pointer to licenses and disclaimers of copyright interest.
17:23:27: <calamari> it looks like there is the "GNU Free Documentation License".. I'm guessing that's not compatible with cc0 tho
17:23:52: <Phantom_Hoover> calamari.............
17:23:53: <pikhq> It's not even GPL compatible.
17:24:02: <Phantom_Hoover> The GFDL is widely known as the worst licence ever.
17:24:08: <elliott> calamari: The GFDL is what Wikipedia used to be under (they switched to another Creative Commons license in 2009).
17:24:11: <itidus21> hmm
17:24:11: <pikhq> I strongly recommend against GFDL use.
17:24:27: <elliott> But no license that has any requirements is compatible with the wiki.
17:24:43: <RocketJSquirrel> s/ that has any requirements//
17:24:46: <calamari> pikhq: whys that
17:25:18: <itidus21> maybe the logged history can be distributed as an audiobook, read by various guest speakers including quentin tarantino
17:25:24: <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Mmm, wouldn't a document under e.g. the text of CC0 sans the disclaimer of copyright interest be permissible?
17:25:37: <pikhq> calamari: It's got a large quantity of pretty weird requirements, such as invariant sections.
17:25:37: <elliott> Not that anyone would use such a license.
17:25:49: <itidus21> no wait thats a terrible idea
17:25:50: <elliott> (GFDL is actually non-free per the DFSG.)
17:25:50: <pikhq> And a list of previous titles must be retained.
17:25:52: <Taneb> RocketJSquirrel, yay!
17:25:54: <RocketJSquirrel> elliott: I don't believe so, because the person who put it on the wiki would be putting it under the whole CC0, and hence including an invalid disclaimer of copyright.
17:25:56: <elliott> (Thanks to invariant sections.)
17:25:56: <itidus21> too much code in the logs
17:26:13: <Phantom_Hoover> Can't you have a licence that permits public-domain derivatives?
17:26:18: <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: True enough.
17:26:22: <RocketJSquirrel> Phantom_Hoover: That doesn't even make sense.
17:26:26: <Phantom_Hoover> Admittedly that's isomorphic to just putting it under CC0.
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17:26:29: <RocketJSquirrel> itidus21: PLUS PLUS LESS THAN DOT
17:26:44: <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Anyone can release all their changes into the public domain (assuming it applies in their jurisdiction).
17:26:54: <itidus21> hmm
17:26:57: <elliott> Even if it's modifications to GPL software or whatever.
17:27:02: <elliott> You just can't distribute the modified version itself as PD.
17:27:22: <Phantom_Hoover> Yeah, but it doesn't make sense to allow the modified version to be PD apparently?
17:27:50: <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: You can't tell other people what they can do with their modifications.
17:27:57: <elliott> So "You can release modifications as PD" is a nop.
17:28:02: <elliott> "You can release a modified version as PD" is... weird.
17:28:09: <RocketJSquirrel> Phantom_Hoover: Public domain isn't a license, it means that noöne owns the copyrights to the work. It either is or is not PD, it can't change due to modifications. Added modifications could be PD, but the original part can't be in some quantum superposition of PD and not PD.
17:28:12: <calamari> well the part I like about the GPL (for code anyways) is if you make changes you have to give credit to the original, and it has to stay under the same license
17:28:15: <elliott> It's either completely ineffective due to being nonsense, or releases the original work into PD.
17:28:29: <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, I did say that.
17:28:59: <itidus21> RocketJSquirrel: i think if you map brainfuck chars to alphabet chars you could come up with something which could be pronounced word by word instead of char by char
17:28:59: <calamari> so is there a more sensible documentation license that does those things?
17:29:27: <Phantom_Hoover> calamari, you must release it under CC0, I think.
17:29:41: <elliott> calamari: Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike, but that does not mean it can be included on the wiki and I will still be legally required to take down the revisions.
17:29:47: <RocketJSquirrel> Phantom_Hoover: I think the fact that it ain't goin' wiki is being begrudgingly accepted here X-D
17:30:09: <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: The current text isn't even on the wiki, this is about having to expunge previous revisions.
17:30:33: <elliott> It was put up by an anonymous user because the original link was broken.
17:30:33: <RocketJSquirrel> Yes yes.
17:30:35: <elliott> Right.
17:31:07: <calamari> btw is there a way to search the wiki for "kidsquid.99k.org" in links and change them to "kidsquid.com"?
17:31:11: <RocketJSquirrel> Darn those anonymouses.
17:31:38: <calamari> I guess I could just search for my stuff and look at the links
17:31:42: <elliott> calamari: Yes, see Special:LinkSearch.
17:32:23: <Phantom_Hoover> "A floating point number, which changes slightly every time it's read from. There is no way to compare whether two values are equal, since the values are so unstable -- only the greater than and less than comparisons are available." � [[entropy]]
17:32:29: <elliott> calamari: OK, so I've lost track of the resolution to this; you're not releasing it as CC0, right?
17:32:40: <Phantom_Hoover> I note that it doesn't actually state how the variation it's made.
17:32:43: <Phantom_Hoover> *is
17:32:49: <itidus21> applied to assembly language.. operators could be consonants, first operand could be vowel, second operand could be another consonant .. add ax bx = bab
17:32:56: <RocketJSquirrel> Phantom_Hoover: So, floats that encourage people to use floats as you ought to be using them in the first place?
17:33:16: <Phantom_Hoover> ...best idea.
17:33:27: <calamari> elliott: thanks (and thanks for the CC-A-S note
17:33:59: <nortti> calamari: it is CC-BY-SA
17:34:21: <calamari> Attribution + ShareAlike (by-sa)
17:34:23: <RocketJSquirrel> Also, I cannot emphasize enough how important it is that everyone read the link in the topic.
17:34:24: <calamari> whatever
17:35:23: <elliott> calamari: OK, I'll take that as a yes, then
17:35:33: <itidus21> RocketJSquirrel: http://www.cnoteevil.com/
17:35:43: <itidus21> do click
17:35:56: <RocketJSquirrel> itidus21: Hm, I am now "This Guy."
17:36:16: <RocketJSquirrel> itidus21: And the link doesn't go directly to the blog post, so hyuk on that.
17:36:23: <Phantom_Hoover> RocketJSquirrel, are you actually a musicion in the neoromantic style?
17:36:31: <Phantom_Hoover> Or... a musician... in the necromantic style?
17:36:32: <RocketJSquirrel> Phantom_Hoover: I pretend to be.
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17:36:39: <RocketJSquirrel> Sometimes both!
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17:37:16: <calamari> elliott: yes to what?
17:37:22: <Phantom_Hoover> RocketJSquirrel, your space travel answer is BULLSHIT, and I am going to tell you WHY
17:37:24: <elliott> <elliott> calamari: OK, so I've lost track of the resolution to this; you're not releasing it as CC0, right?
17:37:30: <RocketJSquirrel> Phantom_Hoover: Ruh roh
17:37:40: <calamari> elliott: sorry, no I'm not
17:38:04: <Phantom_Hoover> You fail to take into account the expansion of the universe; there's a finite horizon beyond which nothing can actually pass.
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17:38:17: <elliott> calamari: That is unfortunate. I'll delete the revisions.
17:38:20: <calamari> IMO they shouldn't have copied the spec into the wiki in the first place
17:38:55: <elliott> it was only copied because the link was dead
17:38:57: <calamari> RocketJSquirrel: there I spammed rainbow dash for you
17:39:04: <RocketJSquirrel> Phantom_Hoover: OK, fair enough, I slightly oversimplified the original statement.
17:39:27: <pikhq> And by someone who doesn't really understand copyright.
17:39:55: <Phantom_Hoover> And anyway, there are plenty of places worth going to within civilisational timescales, not to mention the prospect of colony ships.
17:41:34: <pikhq> And generation ships. Feasible with current technology, except where the hell would we want to *send* one?
17:41:43: <Phantom_Hoover> The Orion Nebula is only 1300ly away, for instance, and, well, http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f3/Orion_Nebula_-_Hubble_2006_mosaic_18000.jpg
17:42:04: <RocketJSquirrel> pikhq: Are you saying you don't want to go visit some lifeless rocks in a distant star system?
17:42:19: <itidus21> the nice thing about championofbirds i can see is they focus on the content, stripping back the web design to the bare minimum
17:42:33: <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Link to the fucking file page when the image is gigantic by gigantic.
17:42:46: <RocketJSquirrel> itidus21: The bad thing is that the content is entirely uninteresting nonsense.
17:42:49: <pikhq> RocketJSquirrel: I'd be perfectly fine with it if it were a trip that individuals could make and come back to tell the tale.
17:42:52: <elliott> My internet connection is crying :P
17:43:04: <pikhq> RocketJSquirrel: As-is, the only real reason to go to other star systems would be to set up shop.
17:43:12: <itidus21> they even go so far as to conceal the names of the webpages
17:43:17: <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, I'm going to scream "BUSSARD RAMJET" until reality goes away and stops mocking m.
17:43:19: <Phantom_Hoover> *me
17:43:19: <pikhq> And... We don't really know of somewhere good to go colonize.
17:43:30: <RocketJSquirrel> pikhq: Even if it was, but relativistically, so they came back to tell the tale to their great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great grandchildren?
17:43:54: <pikhq> RocketJSquirrel: You could quite reasonably find volunteers for that.
17:44:04: <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: http://championofbirds.com/?p=4991#comment-748
17:44:13: <pikhq> There just doesn't seem a point in making a generation ship to look at space rocks.
17:44:46: <RocketJSquirrel> elliott: Yes?
17:44:52: <Phantom_Hoover> I love the way that the two of you have reduced the entire field of astrophysics to "space rocks".
17:44:58: <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: I have no idea :P
17:45:02: <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: ;)
17:45:11: <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Sometimes the rocks are on fire! Those are called stars.
17:45:13: <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Oversimplification is one of my many strengths.
17:45:26: <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Sometimes they're really thin rocks, so you can go through them.
17:45:39: <RocketJSquirrel> My point is just that we'd have to have a very compelling reason to go to anywhere in particular, and we've found nothing compelling yet.
17:46:25: <Phantom_Hoover> You guys just don't have the vision to see that gas giant colonisation is obviously the answer.
17:46:57: <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: I'm actually advocating colonies if we find a place to colonise.
17:47:01: <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: OMG what if we all lived in tiny spaceships inside gas giants.
17:47:07: <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, yes, see
17:47:14: <pikhq> As-is, the only way we're colonising *anything* is with a freaking space station.
17:47:15: <Phantom_Hoover> it would be
17:47:16: <Phantom_Hoover> so awesome
17:47:27: <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Wait what about the gravity.
17:47:35: <elliott> How big do you need for rotating to work decently.
17:47:58: <pikhq> elliott: If it's deep enough the local acceleration due to gravity should be 9.8 m/s.
17:48:15: <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, the surface gravity of Jupiter is 2.5G.
17:48:17: <elliott> Oh yeah, planets have gravity now...
17:48:29: <pikhq> However, your ships might need to be made of exotic materials. ;)
17:48:31: <elliott> ...who'da thunk it?
17:48:42: <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: OK so we need anti-gravity instead.
17:48:44: <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: And the surface pressure? :D
17:49:28: <calamari> did you guys see the recent article that being in space too long deforms your eyeballs? they want to research it more to see if it continues to get worse or stops at a certain point
17:51:00: <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, given that 'surface' here means 'boundary with space'.... 0.
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17:51:37: <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Lame!
17:51:54: <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Not the hypothesized solid center's surface.
17:51:56: <pikhq> Laaame!
17:52:04: <Phantom_Hoover> Also, the point at which gravity is around g is 3/5ths of the way into the planet.
17:52:19: <elliott> EXCELLENT let us go there.
17:52:37: <pikhq> elliott: The pressure will probably crush your ship like a tin can.
17:52:56: <Phantom_Hoover> (I was going to work it out but using WA would be awful, but then I realised that the formula is literally just radius * surface gravity/surface radius.)
17:54:12: <elliott> pikhq: OK so don't make it out of tin.
17:54:14: <elliott> PROBLEM
17:54:15: <elliott> SOLVED
17:54:41: <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, not if it's SOLID STEEL
17:57:03: <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: What if we make it... out of LEAD
18:01:12: <itidus21> calamari: its probably the tip of the iceburg of a greater set of problems of being in space too long
18:02:37: <calamari> itidus21: yeah it would only be sheer luck if that weren't the case
18:03:01: <Phantom_Hoover> Ooooh.
18:03:13: <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Oooho?
18:03:14: <elliott> *oh
18:03:20: <Phantom_Hoover> Saturn's surface gravity is almost exactly 1g.
18:04:01: <Phantom_Hoover> So not only would you get gravity, you'd get bitchin' rings as well.
18:04:13: <itidus21> calamari: but rather than do the obvious thing like spend less time in space..we must push on
18:04:30: <itidus21> and start calling for funding to fix the eye problem
18:04:57: <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: approve
18:05:24: <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Except, can you even see the rings.
18:05:45: <Phantom_Hoover> I'm not sure; it depends how deep in the atmosphere you are.
18:06:01: <calamari> Phantom_Hoover: how's the radiation level at Saturn?
18:06:16: <Phantom_Hoover> Radiation level? As in from the solar wind?
18:06:35: <calamari> hmm for some reason I seem to remember hearing there was a lot of radation near Jupiter
18:06:41: <calamari> maybe I'm totally wrong
18:06:51: <Phantom_Hoover> Saturn has a magnetic field comparable to Earth's and is further from the sun, but I'm not sure about other sources.
18:07:44: <calamari> also, how would you prevent your "orbit" from decaying and being crushed
18:07:50: <Phantom_Hoover> O.o Jupiter produces its own heat by gravitational contraction.
18:08:00: <Phantom_Hoover> calamari, who said anything about orbits?
18:08:21: <calamari> http://www.astrobio.net/exclusive/3010/hiding-from-jupiters-radiation
18:08:21: <Phantom_Hoover> You should be able to use buoyancy, although there might be practical problems.
18:09:17: <Phantom_Hoover> Those're due to the magnetic field, and Saturn's is a twentieth of Jupiter's.
18:10:08: <Phantom_Hoover> In any case, they're localised to the equator.
18:11:32: <Phantom_Hoover> (Incidentally, being deep enough into Jupiter to get 1g of gravity would also mean being well within the metallic hydrogen layer, so you couldn't do that under any circumstances.)
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18:15:58: <Phantom_Hoover> Oh joy, /r/math is another pi vs. taufest.
18:17:07: <elliott> <Phantom_Hoover> (Incidentally, being deep enough into Jupiter to get 1g of gravity would also mean being well within the metallic hydrogen layer, so you couldn't do that under any circumstances.)
18:17:09: <elliott> we could try
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18:22:58: <quintopia> is there a way to map a folder in my local filesystem to a folder on my vps so that files copied to that folder get auto-uploaded and stuff?
18:23:24: <elliott> write a fuse filesystem
18:23:27: <elliott> or just use sshfs
18:23:35: <elliott> (don't write a fuse filesystem, i forgot sshfs existed)
18:24:44: <fizzie> I think there all kinds of dropbox clones too, if you want a more "no delay when accessing the files, will be uploaded lazily" semantics.
18:24:48: <fizzie> sshfs to a slow place is... slow.
18:25:13: <elliott> People here might be interested in reading http://www.slate.com/articles/technology/technology/2012/03/ruby_ruby_on_rails_and__why_the_disappearance_of_one_of_the_world_s_most_beloved_computer_programmers_.html, by the way.
18:25:33: <elliott> Not all that much interesting, but at least contains some confirmation about _why.
18:28:18: <quintopia> neat
18:28:56: <Phantom_Hoover> Also demonstration that _why is actually the protagonist of a Rand book.
18:29:26: <elliott> FSVO all of that
18:33:25: <elliott> I like how the article links to a Wikipedia article that was deleted in October.
18:42:40: <itidus21> i wish that beneath my scruffy exterior i too was a programmer of awe inspiring signifigance
18:43:25: <itidus21> wahahaha
18:46:34: <fizzie> What's this http://www.baldursgate.com/ counter all about? The source comments say "March 14, 2012. Shadowy Figure- Raise Dead : Infinity Engine. It is coming." (The middle part is written in the same way as old BG spell effects ended up in the log.)
18:46:54: <fizzie> (#esoteric is my go-to place for all questions on life, the universe and everything.)
18:47:33: <itidus21> i have yet to find a community of people exactly like me
18:47:56: <fizzie> A cloning vat is a good place to start with.
18:49:14: <itidus21> this place is too advanced for me to truely be immersed in esolang
18:49:41: <elliott> 500 internal server error
18:50:03: <elliott> fizzie: "Latest release Baldur's Gate: Dark Alliance II
18:50:03: <elliott> 20 January 2004"
18:50:09: <elliott> I would wager there's a new game coming out, or something.
18:50:20: <elliott> "Raising the dead" and so on?
18:51:07: <elliott> [[In the January 2008 issue of PC Gamer UK, the editor claims that he knows that Baldur's Gate III is indeed being worked on - this has further been reiterated in the January 2009 edition.[citation needed]
18:51:07: <elliott> On December 2, 2008, Atari stated in a press conference that the Baldur's Gate series (among others) would be revisited after 2009.[6]
18:51:07: <elliott> On February 7, 2010, in an interview about Mass Effect 2, IGN asked Ray Muzyka of BioWare about the future of Baldur's Gate, noting the sighting of Boo in the Citadel souvenir shop. He replied, 'Hey, that's just a space hamster. Boo's brother. And again, you'll have to talk to Atari about that, they've got the license.'[7]]]
18:51:14: <itidus21> alright! time to put on my ritual necromancy cloak
18:51:37: <elliott> I also note
18:51:37: <elliott> @font-face {
18:51:38: <elliott> font-family: Sherwood;
18:51:38: <elliott> src: url('http://www.baldursgate.com/sherwood.ttf');
18:51:38: <elliott> }
18:51:51: <elliott> yet the page has no text, suggesting more design work has been done than is seen on that page.
18:51:52: <itidus21> ooh
18:52:47: <itidus21> adding font to fonts folder
18:53:36: <itidus21> i mean.. cp to /dir/fonts/ or something
18:54:20: <elliott> fizzie: HAPPY NOW????
18:54:31: <fizzie> YES VERY THANK U
18:54:46: <elliott> https://www.google.co.uk/search?ix=aca&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=Shadowy+Figure-+Raise+Dead+%3A+Infinity+Engine
18:54:49: <elliott> Here is MORE INFORMATION.
18:54:56: <elliott> There's past entries on, e.g. http://www.elvenrunes.de/cgi-bin/logs/show.m?log=b62517,76811&disc=1&sort=1&snew=1&omode=&all=0&typ=.
18:55:09: <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, also, elliott and monqy are mining friends in new DF fort.#
18:55:18: <elliott> <!— oh dear it's coming soon —>
18:55:36: <itidus21> oh my that is a nice font
18:55:51: <elliott> "edit: Checking the site a bit more and looking at the background etc, it rather seems they were porting the infinity-engine. This probably means tablets etc."
18:55:51: <Phantom_Hoover> (Mining friends are best friends because they do all the initial work and so have completely different sleep and eating cycles.
18:55:53: <Phantom_Hoover> *)
18:56:06: <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I've got the sleep cycle bit down.
18:56:14: <elliott> monqy will have to try harder.
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18:56:42: <itidus21> I can almost imagine a smarmy british robin hood voice speaking it. Not russell crowe.
18:57:33: <fizzie> sherwood.ttf is the font in which the downwards-counting counter (that's now at about two hours) that I see is.
18:57:42: <fizzie> But I've heard the counter isn't visible to everyone.
18:57:51: <Phantom_Hoover> I can just imagine Bioware bringing out a new Baldur's gate, mainly because it seems almost inevitable that they'll pull some supremely dickish stunt that'll make everyone declare it ruined forever.
18:58:19: <elliott> I was about to say that Google has indexed it being talked about on /v/ and that the likelihood of that thread still existing is very low, but then I clicked and it's at the top so I suppose it's fairly likely that's where you saw it.
18:58:23: <fizzie> I was just wondering if it was coincidental that today (I think) is Diablo 3 release day, too.
18:58:29: <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: My link sez it woulnd't be Bioware.
18:58:32: <elliott> *wood
18:58:40: <elliott> Atari own the rites.
18:58:49: <Phantom_Hoover> Oh.
18:59:00: <elliott> fizzie: Yes, I'm not seeing no counter.
18:59:01: <Phantom_Hoover> Atari still functionally exist??
18:59:06: <elliott> That skull is scarrey.
18:59:14: <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: You don't have to exist functionally to sit on rhytes.
18:59:24: <elliott> http://include.reinvigorate.net/re_.jsFailed to load resource
18:59:25: <elliott> http://baldursgate.com/js/jquery.countdown.min.jsFailed to load resource: the server responded with a status of 500 (Internal Server Error)
18:59:25: <elliott> http://baldursgate.com/:113Uncaught TypeError: Object [object Object] has no method 'countdown'
18:59:33: <elliott> fizzie: It'd work if their server wasn't crappy. :p
19:00:05: <elliott> (http://boards.4chan.org/v/res/132719001 is the thread in question, if anyone feels particularly masochistic.)
19:00:41: <elliott> Oh, apparently ``the eruddites'' have found it.
19:00:43: <fizzie> Come to think of it, I wonder if the "droplets" in the skull logo are actually sperm? I mean, the protagonist is the spawn of Bhaal, and so on.
19:00:46: <fizzie> Well, maybe not.
19:01:30: <elliott> Now I'm going to have to keep checking it.
19:01:34: <elliott> Curse you.
19:02:06: <Phantom_Hoover> Did you play the first Baldur's Gate?
19:02:12: <elliott> No.
19:02:26: <elliott> But it's a coutner!
19:02:40: <elliott> I mean, I watched eon8 intently, and that wasn't even *for* anything.
19:03:39: <Phantom_Hoover> ALSO: I had a friend today say that all the methods employed by game publishers to prevent resales (DRM, DLC on release, etc.) were OK because resales "hurt small developers more".
19:03:50: <elliott> fizzie: Hey, what was that other site starting with "eon" that just had that photograph in some narrow corridor or something that everyone freaked out about at the time?
19:04:00: <elliott> (fizzie is my go-to place for allq uestions on life, the universe and everything.)
19:04:13: <Phantom_Hoover> I tried pointing out that small developers don't really do that sort of thing, but he didn't listen.
19:05:25: <fizzie> Sorry, the E.ON energy company is my only mental association with 'eon'.
19:06:36: <elliott> Thiss-uh thing: http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Purpose_of_mysterious_website_Eon8_revealed
19:06:54: <elliott> Except people tried to load eon*.tld in the mad dash to attribute some nonsense meaning to it.
19:08:47: -!- pikhq_ has joined #esoteric.
19:08:58: -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
19:09:57: -!- boily has joined #esoteric.
19:10:01: <boily> join ##crawl
19:10:14: <monqy> hi
19:10:27: <fizzie> elliott: Apparently eon5.com. "It appears to be nothing more than a strange picture of what looks like a corridor."
19:10:31: <fizzie> (Currently it's something else.)
19:10:42: <boily> hi (says I in embarassement caused by a glitchy '/' key)
19:10:52: <elliott> join #esoteric
19:11:08: <elliott> are you embarrassed because your keyboard sucks, or because crawl sucks? :)
19:12:44: <boily> if it's about suckiness, my win ratio at crawl is far from good. otherwise, I should vacuum my keyboard more often...
19:13:37: <monqy> not everyone in ##crawl likes/plays crawl but I guess that means you do
19:15:39: <boily> yeah, I had a relapse last week.
19:16:16: <elliott> monqy is looking down on boily now
19:16:23: <elliott> "he's one of the ones that actually play" he says (to himself)
19:18:20: <boily> I see crawl more and more as a drug. I have seen graduate students having their life destroyed by it!
19:18:48: <boily> (or was it the influence of their advisors? it's difficult to know.)
19:21:42: <elliott> It's a gateway drug to NetHack.
19:23:33: <fizzie> And HACKING will get you EXPELLED.
19:24:08: <elliott> Cue "Is Your Son a Computer Hacker?".
19:25:03: <fizzie> I got some feedback that mentioning the word "hacker", even if it's qualified with "older sense" or some-such, in a personal page means one won't ever get a job, because all HR departments will immediately disqualify an applicant when they see the word in their regular googling run.
19:25:38: <elliott> Similarly for "speech recognition researcher".
19:25:51: <fizzie> Yes, but that just makes sense. The first one doesn't.
19:27:17: <elliott> http://www.mezzacotta.net/garfield/?comic=519 -- fizzie and Taneb together almost a YEAR before the latter first visited us.
19:27:20: <elliott> Spookier than Hexham?
19:28:12: <fizzie> That was all kinda spooky, yes.
19:28:39: <fizzie> I think I did notice the name at some point, though.
19:34:20: <elliott> "An image of the Main Page of Wikipedia watermarked, claimed as copyrighted, and sold by Getty Images and Agence France-Presse. Wikipedia text is licensed CC-BY-SA 3.0 which requires the same or similar free license on all derivative works."
19:34:34: <elliott> For "no self reference" guys, those Wikipedians sure like using themselves as an example.
19:35:25: -!- augur has joined #esoteric.
19:39:35: <MDude> I don't think you'd need to care about the liscense if it was somehow otherwise fair use, but I don't see how that would be the case here.
19:39:43: -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
19:40:59: <elliott> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6e/WP_on_Getty_images_with_watermark.jpg is the image in question.
19:41:16: <elliott> Clearly the computer around it constitutes a new creative work.
19:41:27: <elliott> Clearly.
19:41:38: <elliott> (Actually it probably does.)
19:58:48: -!- nortti has joined #esoteric.
20:01:03: <elliott> fizzie: http://dfclan.org/wazzledoozle/eon5.jpg
20:01:06: <elliott> PRESERVED FOR THE AGES.
20:02:09: <fizzie> GOOD TO KNOW.
20:06:35: <elliott> fizzie: YOU TOO can relive the eon8 experience: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yl1u38O90aA
20:08:22: <nortti> "James' resemblance to Montgomery
20:08:42: <elliott> wat
20:09:05: <nortti> www.cracked.com/article_19723_5-insane-cases-imposters-passing-world-leaders.html
20:11:09: <elliott> "and even started using a prosthetic finger, since Montgomery had lost a finger on his right hand in World War I."
20:11:10: <nortti> Shit! It cut some text off of my message
20:11:15: <elliott> Wait, how does that make you *lose* a finger?
20:11:19: <elliott> Prosthetic non-finger?
20:12:14: -!- augur has joined #esoteric.
20:12:37: <nortti> "James' resemblance to Montgomery
20:13:49: <nortti> Why is is giving me (421) got :Unknown command, (421) saw :Unknown command and (421) to :Unknown command
20:14:31: <elliott> nortti: do you have lines starting with /?
20:14:52: <nortti> no.
20:15:06: <elliott> hmmmhmm
20:15:13: <elliott> it seems like it's sending a new irc message for every few words of your line
20:15:23: <elliott> except it's forgetting the "PRIVMSG #esoteric :" on all but the first
20:15:28: <elliott> weird.
20:16:46: <fizzie> Embedded newlines in the paste, but it sounds very weird to have a client that would break on that.
20:18:03: <nortti> Well. I am using AndroIRC
20:18:22: <nortti> "James' resemblance to Montgomery got him the attention of MI5, who saw in him the perfect opportunity to troll some Nazis." Did it work this time?
20:18:30: <fizzie> Yes.
20:18:34: <elliott> Yes.
20:18:35: <elliott> fizzie: I suppose pasting them in is the only way that could happen on Android.
20:18:47: <elliott> fizzie: So it probably does "PRIVMSG " + chan + " :" + msg + "\r\n" or something silly like that.
20:18:59: <elliott> Good to know it's a quality client.
20:19:57: <nortti> Only working client that didn't want to be able to look at my contacts or make phonecalls
20:20:37: <olsner> android should have an "allow access but always give it fake data" option when installing apps
20:21:24: <olsner> that or the good old system where every access to protected stuff makes the OS pop up a confirmation dialog
20:21:55: <nortti> I have that for apps that want to know where I am (I usually set it yo north pole or Area 51)
20:22:38: <boily> area 51 isn't at the north pole?
20:22:59: <nortti> boily: no
20:23:36: <elliott> That's Area 52.
20:24:03: <elliott> nortti: What about the South Pole, man???
20:24:15: <boily> I guess 53?
20:24:22: <boily> (need to go. bye all!)
20:24:23: -!- boily has quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.3.7).
20:24:52: <nortti> It is pretty funny to see facebook of my friend who uses random locations.
20:25:10: <nortti> elliott: I also use it sometimes
20:30:42: <nortti> Sometimes I forget to turn Fake GPS off before using a navigation. Results are interesting
20:32:43: -!- oerjan has joined #esoteric.
20:32:58: <elliott> hi oerjan
20:33:02: <nortti> Just interested. Where do you live?
20:33:05: <oerjan> hi elliott
20:33:21: <elliott> england
20:34:01: <nortti> By you I meant you all
20:34:59: <nortti> Why did english language abandon thou?
20:35:05: <elliott> oerjan lives in sweden
20:35:31: <oerjan> elliott lives in pentamutton, westochreshire
20:35:48: <elliott> I pent a mutton every day.
20:36:35: <oerjan> i'm in norway, which all americans know is the capital of sweden
20:36:52: <olsner> more like a suburb of sweden
20:36:55: <itidus21> i thought norway was a country
20:37:06: <itidus21> disregard
20:37:14: <olsner> itidus21: norwegians think so too :)
20:37:28: <itidus21> i was in suspension of disbelief
20:37:38: <oerjan> large unidentified flying object observed over itidus21, causing stray winds
20:37:48: <nortti> oerjan: well I live in finland and many people think that it is in siberia
20:37:59: <elliott> That's because it is.
20:38:05: <elliott> `? finland
20:38:14: <HackEgo> Finland is a European country. There are two people in Finland, and at least five of them are in this channel. Corun drives the bus.
20:38:23: <oerjan> `? norway
20:38:26: <HackEgo> norway? ¯\(°_o)/¯
20:38:28: <olsner> `? sweden
20:38:32: <HackEgo> sweden? ¯\(°_o)/¯
20:38:37: <elliott> `learn Norway is the suburb capital of Sweden.
20:38:40: <HackEgo> I knew that.
20:38:43: <elliott> `learn Sweden is the suburb capital of Norway.
20:38:46: <HackEgo> I knew that.
20:38:52: <oerjan> elliott: hey i was going to do that
20:38:57: <olsner> `? elliott
20:39:01: <HackEgo> elliott wrote this learn DB, and wrote or improved many of the other commands in this bot. He probably has done other things?
20:39:04: <elliott> oerjan: How coincidental! I was going to make you a wiki sysop!
20:39:44: <oerjan> `learn Norway is the suburb capital of Sweden. It's where the Nobel Peace Prize is announced.
20:39:47: <HackEgo> I knew that.
20:39:55: <nortti> 5 finnish people out of 2 are on this channel...
20:39:56: <fizzie> I think (a) you should keep escalating that threat, and (b) it should be something like the dictator-for-life of the world at this point.
20:40:23: <oerjan> `learn Sweden is the suburb capital of Norway. It's where all the Nobel prizes are announced, except the Math Prize.
20:40:26: <HackEgo> I knew that.
20:40:46: <elliott> nortti: Yes. Actually it's more than 5 now.
20:41:07: <elliott> `learn Siberia is the capital of Finland. It's where the Fields Medal was first synthesised.
20:41:10: <HackEgo> I knew that.
20:41:28: <elliott> fizzie: Don't I have to become dictator-for-life of the world before I can appoint other people that?
20:42:20: <olsner> if you're dictator for life, you can only appoint other people if you die first
20:42:26: <oerjan> fizzie: also, dictator-for-life of the world is implied by my .plan, so how is that a threat?
20:42:45: <elliott> olsner: No, I can just redefine my own job title.
20:42:48: * elliott wonders what oerjan's .plan is.
20:43:11: <itidus21> According to the licensing agreement you can only use the software if you are dictator-for-life of the world.
20:43:12: <oerjan> sprocket:oerjan:~> cat .plan
20:43:12: <oerjan> World domination through widespread nonsense and confusion.
20:43:33: <elliott> Well, you've got the nonsense and confusion part down.
20:43:34: <nortti> `? oerjan
20:43:37: <HackEgo> Your evil overlord oerjan is a lazy expert in future computation.
20:44:01: <oerjan> elliott: thanks!
20:44:27: <elliott> oerjan: ...but not the "widespread" part.
20:44:38: <elliott> What package is finger(1) in this century?
20:45:00: <oerjan> elliott: excuse me, but i think you are repeating my lines from when we last discussed .plans here
20:45:17: <oerjan> elliott: i suspect nvg may not accept external finger requests
20:45:45: <elliott> Yes, that was what I was trying to find out.
20:45:55: <elliott> Although my first attempt was "ssh sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no".
20:46:12: <elliott> Unfortunately it seems they have yet to give me an account. I've even emailed them before and everything.
20:46:19: <oerjan> how sad
20:46:25: <elliott> Although not about getting an account, admittedly.
20:47:11: <oerjan> elliott: well at least internal finger works.
20:47:39: <elliott> fizzie: You know what package finger is in, right?
20:48:22: <olsner> archaic-useless-tools?
20:48:43: <olsner> or maybe it was just archaic-tools
20:49:13: <oerjan> hm iirc there used to be a web member list that showed the .plan, but now the list just links to my homepage.
20:49:37: <olsner> oh, so this finger business is for displaying oerjan's .plan?
20:49:47: <olsner> he already told us though
20:50:03: <elliott> Yes, but it's more authentic from the source.
20:50:48: <oerjan> finger oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no _does_ work _from_ sprocket :P
20:51:20: <oerjan> as does finger oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no, in case one suspected it was purely local.
20:51:58: <calamari> thanks for the fake gps app mention.. set my location to equestria.. according to google maps, that's in south africa
20:52:01: <elliott> See! So I'm missing out.
20:52:41: * elliott installs finger.
20:53:25: <elliott> oerjan: YOU USE TCSH?!?!?!?!
20:53:27: <elliott> MONSTER!
20:53:39: <oerjan> eek, finger actually works?
20:54:04: <oerjan> i had the impression they removed it for security reasons.
20:54:15: <elliott> He uses tcsh!
20:54:18: <elliott> tcsh!
20:54:29: <oerjan> and yes, i have not changed my shell since i got the account in 1992 or so
20:54:37: <nortti> oerjan: what security reasons?
20:54:55: <oerjan> nortti: it _does_ tell when i was last logged in and stuff...
20:55:05: <nortti> oerjan: why you use tcsh?
20:55:05: <elliott> It tells me you have two ptys open, too. :p
20:55:09: <elliott> And when they started up.
20:55:11: <oerjan> only to that machine, though.
20:55:12: <elliott> But seriously, stop using tcsh.
20:55:35: <oerjan> elliott: but then i'd have to rewrite my login scripts :(
20:55:42: <elliott> Ooh, oerjan has an office.
20:55:46: <elliott> Supposedly.
20:56:03: <nortti> elliott: what shell do you recommend?
20:56:04: <oerjan> elliott: i was wondering about that office. it hasn't been current since at least 2000.
20:56:04: <olsner> what, an office!? I thought he was a student
20:56:19: <elliott> olsner: He's... what do you call it... when you stop being a student and retire from studentry.
20:56:20: <oerjan> i'm not sure where the data for that field is...
20:56:22: <calamari> tcsh was always my preferred shell, but I got used to bash
20:56:24: <olsner> elliott: human?
20:56:31: <elliott> olsner: No, I think it's called a Ph.D.
20:56:50: <olsner> hmm, that's just another kind of student, isn't it?
20:57:10: <elliott> So once you get a Ph.D., you're a student for life?
20:57:15: <elliott> oerjan: Did you know you've never logged in to whatever machine plain nvg.ntnu.no points to?
20:57:32: <elliott> Also, apparently oerjan's name starts with an "a", going by /home/lusers/a/oerjan.
20:58:02: <elliott> He also hasn't checked his mail in 35 minutes. finger(1) is rather intrusive, it seems.
20:58:39: <olsner> does it tell you when his last bathroom break was?
20:58:52: <elliott> Yes, but I will redact that information for the sake of the logs.
20:59:04: <elliott> oerjan: I'm surprised it doesn't mangle your Unicode realname.
21:00:29: <oerjan> <elliott> oerjan: Did you know you've never logged in [...] <-- that's quite likely, in recent years i've used tyrell and sprocket to log in, and before sprocket it was hagbart (r.i.p., i think)
21:01:06: <elliott> Well, finger can't connect to hagbart, so let's say RIP.
21:01:07: <nortti> "When you log into a unix machine you can finger your friends. You can also get head, and get tail (of a file), take a dump, or mount something (a drive). You may also fsck your drive"
21:01:08: <oerjan> plain nvg is not intended as a login server at all, i think.
21:01:14: <elliott> I remember you logging in from hagbart.
21:01:56: <oerjan> way back we were all on swix, nvg's first machine, a vax ultrix server
21:02:03: -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:02:07: <elliott> What's the naming convention?
21:03:53: <fizzie> We don't have an accessible finger service any more. :(
21:03:53: <oerjan> elliott: i think it's somewhat haphazard. tyrell is probably a bladerunner reference, hagbart _may_ be a child show or literature character (we had several of those), sprocket ... oh i just remembered, it's the dog from fraggle rock
21:04:26: <oerjan> (don't know if it was named the same in english)
21:04:56: <olsner> oerjan is apparently logged in twice on sprocket
21:04:59: <oerjan> swix was a pun on vax - it's a well know (at least in norway) ski wax brand
21:05:14: <oerjan> olsner: i opened a second terminal to check finger
21:05:38: <nortti> on our chool server is named Uranus-Hertz
21:05:39: <elliott> ski + wax = vax, clearly
21:06:16: <oerjan> elliott: erm i don't know about the ski part
21:06:33: <elliott> shouldn't it have been svix? :p
21:07:01: <olsner> http://www.swixsport.com/
21:07:02: <elliott> nortti: i take it you have very mature sysadmins
21:07:23: <oerjan> hm apparently there's still a machine responding to swix
21:08:10: <oerjan> i'm not convinced it's a vax though. hm...
21:08:24: <elliott> Well, it's running an sshd.
21:08:32: <elliott> Can VAXen run sshd?
21:08:48: <elliott> (What's the nmap switch to try and figure out what OS a system is using?)
21:08:52: <oerjan> ooh it's actually SunOS
21:09:29: <nortti> elliott: I have root account on that server and I am the sysadmin currently after old admin leaved. It is pentium II with 256 mb of memory
21:09:32: <oerjan> swix:oerjan:~> uname -a
21:09:32: <oerjan> SunOS swix 5.9 Generic_122300-29 sun4u sparc SUNW,Ultra-5_10 Solaris
21:10:10: <elliott> nortti: that's a yes then ;D
21:10:26: <elliott> I don't think Pentium IIs even go up to Uranus Hz.
21:10:46: <elliott> oerjan: hm SunOS 5.9?
21:10:52: <elliott> 2002 vintage
21:10:57: <elliott> *Solaris
21:11:36: <oerjan> ah plain nvg is sabre-wulf, i remember that
21:11:39: <fizzie> oerjaneA "SunOS vipunen.hut.fi 5.10 Generic_147440-03 sun4u sparc SUNW,Sun-Fire-880" nyar nyar ours is newer.
21:11:48: <fizzie> s/eA/:/
21:11:49: <nortti> best part oof being sysadmin is when cleaning staff trips over the power cord..
21:12:02: <oerjan> a boring i386 linux :P
21:12:58: <oerjan> <elliott> oerjan: I'm surprised it doesn't mangle your Unicode realname. <-- oh hm it _does_ mangle when i finger it, i suspect it's _actually_ in latin-1
21:13:02: <elliott> what're sprocket and tyrell? I'M CURIOUS NOW
21:13:08: <elliott> oerjan: oh. well it displays properly for me with a remote finger.
21:15:41: <olsner> 00000010 20 20 20 20 20 20 09 09 09 4e 61 6d 65 3a 20 d8 | ...Name: .|
21:15:56: <oerjan> elliott: oh wait hagbart is alive! (i686 linux)
21:16:15: <elliott> oh it runs ssh
21:16:19: <elliott> just not finger
21:17:33: <oerjan> <elliott> shouldn't it have been svix? :p <-- um i don't think the swix trademark is a pun, naming a vax that is the pun
21:18:40: <elliott> ...yes, i know
21:18:53: <elliott> am i missing something? i assumed swix was chosen because vax sounds vaguely like wax.
21:18:57: <oerjan> elliott: sprocket is x86_64 linux
21:19:16: <oerjan> elliott: yes, of course, norwegian doesn't have a w sound.
21:19:41: <oerjan> also en:wax = no:voks, fwiw
21:19:42: <elliott> ah. that makes more sense, then.
21:19:45: <nortti> oerjan: are you still using vaxen?
21:19:54: <elliott> oh. that makes even more sense, then.
21:20:01: <oerjan> nortti: i don't know of any.
21:20:43: <oerjan> tyrell is i686 linux
21:20:57: <olsner> oerjan: oh, it's much better in swedish then, en:wax = sv:vax
21:21:35: <oerjan> tyrell and sprocket are also Debian
21:22:10: <elliott> Maybe Swedes came up with the pun.
21:22:25: <elliott> oerjan: (Do people actually distinguish i386 and i686 these days?)
21:22:55: <oerjan> elliott: i dunno, i'm just reporting from uname -a
21:23:55: <nortti> our school got rid of 5" floppy drives and betamax videos last year, but we still have reel-to-reel decks and slide projectors
21:24:13: <nortti> elliott: yes
21:25:20: <nortti> they also distinguish between i586 and i686
21:27:30: <elliott> Nobody does that.
21:27:33: <elliott> Not even Debian does that.
21:28:12: <nortti> elliott: ubuntu does
21:29:33: <nortti> 10.10 is last i585 version and newer are i686 versions
21:31:11: <elliott> "Distinguish" as in "name separately", not as in "don't drop hardware support for" :P
21:31:49: -!- zzo38 has joined #esoteric.
21:32:28: <olsner> what is i686 anyway?
21:32:29: <fizzie> I think Slackware had some 'i486'-specific packages. Oh, and then there was that whole mess with gcc/pgcc/egcs mess, but that doesn't quite count.
21:32:52: <fizzie> "Pentium Pro or later" is a good approximation.
21:32:57: <fizzie> (For i686.)
21:33:48: <elliott> fizzie: Well, Debian has (IIRC) 486 and 686 kernels.
21:33:50: <nortti> also mmx and sse screw these things up somewhat
21:33:54: <elliott> (I suppose that means they don't support 386 these days?)
21:34:05: <fizzie> No love for the 386s. :(
21:34:19: <elliott> http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/1999/12/msg00397.html Apparently not.
21:34:25: <elliott> Despite the port being called "i386".
21:34:30: <elliott> I guess i[46]86 is less catchy.
21:34:36: <elliott> > > running debian hamm on 386sx/20, 8m, 116m disk
21:34:37: <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `>'
21:35:02: <fizzie> I think it's something like sarge which no longer officially does i386 at all.
21:35:09: <nortti> elliott: if I remember correctly even linux kernel doesn't build on i386
21:35:43: <nortti> +anymore
21:35:50: <elliott> "On"? Surely you mean "for".
21:35:55: <elliott> Or is it that it requires more RAM than 386 can do?
21:36:24: <elliott> Re: Debian on a 386? Unlikely. (was: ramblings about old hardware,gzip, bz2, and pentium op)
21:36:28: <elliott> A very topical topic, that.
21:36:57: <olsner> could you get new stuff running on 386 by trapping and emulating?
21:37:41: <elliott> fizzie: Remember when I made those mcmap/mchost changes and spent approx. 500 years de-tangling them into something reasonable?
21:37:47: <elliott> At least it was easier than this: http://blog.plover.com/prog/git-habits.html
21:38:18: <nortti> olsner: probaby, but it would be slow
21:38:28: <fizzie> linux-3.1.5 at least still has ""386" for the AMD/Cyrix/Intel 386DX/DXL/SL/SLC/SX, Cyrix/TI 486DLC/DLC2, and UMC 486SX-S. Only "386" kernels will run on a 386 class machine." in the 'processor type' Kconfig setting.
21:38:50: <elliott> http://veracity-scm.com/ Hey, what's this and why didn't anybody tell me about it?
21:40:11: <fizzie> Apropos, did you know that the color of esoteric is #975b40? (It's kind of a quite boring reddish-grayish-brown.)
21:40:54: <elliott> Did you fix that script?
21:41:03: <nortti> www.japheth.de/HX.html
21:41:05: <fizzie> I sort of slightly reimplemented it.
21:41:10: <elliott> Slightly?
21:41:23: <fizzie> Well, with a new way of determining the single color.
21:41:25: <fizzie> See http://zem.fi/misc_gcolor.html
21:42:13: <fizzie> It's all doc-doc-documented.
21:42:24: <olsner> slightly reimplemented :D
21:42:46: <fizzie> olsner: Maybe 'slightly' is not quite the right word, since it doesn't share any code with the previous version.
21:43:35: <olsner> so "reimplemented" is the right word then :)
21:44:03: <olsner> I guess it doesn't hurt to include both words just in case
21:44:05: <nortti> why does no one use #691337 or #caccaa as bg color on their site
21:45:13: <elliott> oerjan: "The preceding point aside, I have trouble believing any language with only a single-byte memory space can be TC. Moreover, the claim that \ "enqueue the byte again, followed by two zero bytes" doesn't make sense when the queue's capacity is just a single byte. Or does it actually mean something else, like a single queue of bytes, or a queue of single bytes?"
21:45:28: <elliott> oerjan: this comment has to be a gripe at the wording rather than serious confusion, right...?
21:45:38: <oerjan> wat
21:45:38: <elliott> (qdeql)
21:45:48: <elliott> "Qdeql is an esoteric programming language devised by User:Graue that provides a single byte queue as the only form of memory available to programs."
21:45:56: <fizzie> I put that 'historical footnote' bit at the bottom in because there's some upstart Web 3.11 http://thecolorof.com/ site, that just sums together images from flickr to get a "color" (i.e. a full image). Okay, sure, it's visually speaking a lot prettier, but I've got like $\infty$% more Greek letters in my description.
21:46:15: <fizzie> Also von-Mises Fisher distributions.
21:46:16: <elliott> fizzie: aaaa when did zem.fi become a real thing.
21:46:24: <fizzie> s/-Mises / Mises-/
21:46:29: <fizzie> Something like a day ago.
21:46:32: <elliott> It scares me! Make the homepage unstyled and useless again!
21:46:58: <fizzie> I managed about thirty hours before plugging it on #esoteric, I think that's a reasonably good job.
21:46:58: <elliott> You need a clear: both on your headings, anyway; "irregular colors" is indented.
21:47:11: <elliott> Also, you have some typos: "colors" for eaxmple.
21:47:13: <elliott> *example
21:47:48: <elliott> Why are all your links enclosed in brackets?
21:47:55: <fizzie> I don't know.
21:48:08: <fizzie> But it's done with :before { content: } nonsense so it's easy to get rid of it.
21:48:17: <fizzie> It's all a bit expeerimental, and websites are not really my thing.
21:48:24: <elliott> You could use MathJax and then your LaTeX wouldn't be unreadably small. :p
21:48:46: <fizzie> I tried jsMath (the only thing I know of) and it just didn't want to work for me.
21:48:49: <elliott> http://zem.fi/misc_gcolorex.html is prettily laid-out, I must admit.
21:48:53: <elliott> fizzie: Mathjax is the successor of jsMath.
21:48:59: <elliott> It's (a lot) less painful now.
21:49:02: <elliott> *J
21:49:09: <elliott> http://www.mathjax.org/
21:49:14: <elliott> They have a CDN thing so you can just pop a script line in.
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21:50:26: <fizzie> I'll have to consider that. I did the current LaTeX with my own script after trying out 'mathtex' (from Ubuntu repos) and 'texvc' (that thing MediaWiki uses); neither one provided any exactly obvious ways to align the image's baseline with the surrounding text for inline math.
21:50:46: <elliott> "Regarding the first half, I do noise-robust speech recognition related activities" -- yes, they're quite robustly noisy, in the "opposite of signal" i.e. nonsense sense.
21:51:27: <elliott> Do Finns really speak of being "in" IRC networks? That's so cyberpunk.
21:51:30: <fizzie> Fortunately, being a speech-recognition guy, I can't hear any disparaging IRC remarks like that.
21:52:12: <fizzie> And at least the Finnish suffix I'd use in that sentence is most closely related to the "in" preposition.
21:52:19: <elliott> Also, your content area has a 1px border at the bottom of it.
21:52:20: <fizzie> We do say "in the Internet" too.
21:52:26: <elliott> It's ugly, because the sidebar doesn't.
21:52:54: <elliott> Oh, it's for when the content is shorter than the menu. There's ways to do proper 2-column with portable CSS these days, you know.
21:53:12: <fizzie> Probably, but websites aren't my thing. And I read through like three Google results on the topic.
21:53:56: <elliott> In the continuing "EVERY WAY IN WHICH FIZZIE'S WEBSITE IS WRONG" series, you have an non-canonical trailing / in your link to mcmap.
21:54:25: <elliott> (Also surely "gcolor" belongs in "code".)
21:54:50: <fizzie> Maybe if I could manage myself to actually show any code. :p
21:55:06: <elliott> Oh, it's "closed sauce".
21:55:14: <elliott> What's the colour of "closed source"?
21:55:39: <RocketJSquirrel> My marinara is closed sauce.
21:56:00: <fizzie> I'll calculate. It will take 8 minutes. (I have rather paranoid delays in the Google-facing bits.)
21:56:30: <olsner> closet sauce
21:56:32: <elliott> fizzie: By the way, the dragon curve logo is way too slow.
21:56:32: <fizzie> At least I'm taking a stand against todays instant-gratification age and blah blah blah.
21:56:40: <elliott> Actually all of them are, apparently.
21:57:05: <fizzie> It's in fact the fastest of them. If it's the l-system dragon-curve.
21:57:41: <elliott> Are your http://zem.fi/misc_logo.html lines really that long?
21:58:01: <fizzie> Sadly. It's a direct inclusion of logo-images.txt.
21:58:11: <fizzie> Maybe I should've supported continuation lines.
21:58:16: <elliott> Also, if I read your source code right, your menu is broken if JS is disabled.
21:58:39: <elliott> Shouldn't you add at least <noscript><style type="text/css">allnavthings { display: block !important }</style></noscript>?
21:58:46: <fizzie> JS just does the underlining of "current" item.
21:58:49: <elliott> Oh.
21:58:49: <fizzie> Rest of it is static HTML.
21:58:55: <elliott> Are you sure?
21:58:58: <fizzie> Yes.
21:58:58: <elliott> navopen('misc') is suspicious.
21:59:04: <fizzie> Well, it's "open" as in "underline it".
21:59:07: <elliott> Oh.
21:59:10: <elliott> The usual meaning of "open".
21:59:25: * elliott notes that fizzie considers two zem.fi links "external".
21:59:26: <fizzie> It's because it does .addClass('open'), but that doesn't affect visibility.
21:59:41: <fizzie> Well, they lead "away" from the thing.
22:00:08: <elliott> "Pattern Recognition Society of Finland gave it the "best pattern recognition master's thesis in Finland 2009" award."
22:00:14: <elliott> That does not sound like a particularly tough competition.
22:00:18: -!- nortti has joined #esoteric.
22:00:42: <fizzie> elliott: I don't really know how many competitors there were. Probably not more than a dozen?
22:00:58: <elliott> So... 600% of Finland's population?
22:01:25: <elliott> fizzie: By the way, you made a typo in one of your last 50 lines.
22:01:32: <olsner> `? finland
22:01:35: <HackEgo> Finland is a European country. There are two people in Finland, and at least five of them are in this channel. Corun drives the bus.
22:02:13: -!- tzxn3 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:02:28: <oerjan> <elliott> oerjan: this comment has to be a gripe at the wording rather than serious confusion, right...? <-- you'd think :P
22:03:18: <elliott> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/79/Kochsnowflake_algorith_modified.jpg Oo-ah.
22:03:37: <elliott> oerjan: Hey, is it possible to compute the fixed point of an L-system?
22:04:12: <elliott> I guess that doesn't make much sense, since the result is an infinite set... how about "is the predicate 'point (x,y) in the fixed point of an L-system' computable"?
22:04:35: <elliott> Except x and y are reals, but... you work out what I mean.
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22:05:50: <fizzie> Some of the logos are kinda silly. Like http://zem.fi/index.html?logo=ifszem
22:06:54: <elliott> By "silly", you mean "I will now promote the best logo"?
22:07:32: <fizzie> I'm not sure which one is the best. Personally I kind of like the trees, but admittedly they're what everyone does.
22:07:38: <oerjan> elliott: i only quarter-remember what an L-system is.
22:08:03: <elliott> You know, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L-system#Example_6:_Sierpinski_triangle these things.
22:09:15: <fizzie> That's lsierp2. :p
22:09:24: <fizzie> (I was sort of not having very many original ideas.)
22:10:11: <elliott> fizzie: You forgot to ATTRIBUTE WIKIPEDIA.
22:10:39: <fizzie> Oh no, that's a CAPITAL OFFICE.
22:11:14: <oerjan> *CAPITOL
22:12:22: <oerjan> elliott: wouldn't this lead to the usual issues with equality of computable reals?
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22:12:38: <oerjan> other than that, it seems easy enough...
22:12:47: <elliott> oerjan: Yeah, let's require x and y to be rationals.
22:13:14: <elliott> You can't just iterate and check, unless there's some kind of bound you can establish for how long it'll take an L-system to draw there.
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22:16:02: <oerjan> hm on second thought, i guess that could be tricky.
22:17:28: -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
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22:23:52: * oerjan ponders that EsoAPI revision deletion.
22:24:05: -!- augur has joined #esoteric.
22:24:41: <oerjan> if our wiki had a license which required attribution, then you would also have to delete any _other_ text introduced in those hidden revisions. but since we don't, i guess you don't.
22:25:51: <oerjan> or wait, since the edit author and summary are still in the history, maybe it wouldn't matter regardless
22:27:01: <elliott> oerjan: Yes, no license requires you to provide diffs of every stage of a page's development.
22:27:46: <elliott> oerjan: It's very unfortunate that someone can make years' worth of history and development completely inaccessible with an innocent attempt to preserve content.
22:27:50: <elliott> Thankfully the changes were minor in this instance.
22:29:03: <oerjan> i guess in _theory_ you could somehow provide censored diffs to preserve some of the rest
22:29:10: <olsner> "someone can make years' worth of history and development completely inaccessible", really?
22:29:43: <elliott> olsner: yes, if the material added was copyrighted
22:29:50: <elliott> then the revisions have to be hidden
22:29:53: <elliott> in their entirety
22:30:02: <elliott> oerjan: yes, it would be nice to be able to do that.
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22:31:04: <olsner> couldn't you argue that since the later revisions have been made from readers of the older revisions, everything's a derived work and you have to restart from before the copyrighted addition?
22:31:30: <elliott> olsner: Certainly, but probably not convincingly.
22:31:33: <fizzie> elliott: oh right I completely forgot closed source => #bf886e open source => #6cc459 see closed source is INDUSTRY DEATH GRAY BROWN CRAP while open source is LIVING MOTHER EARTH GREEN SPIRIT both are at http://zem.fi/misc_gcolorex.html with colors.
22:32:01: <elliott> fizzie: What... what did gcolor do to you?
22:32:28: <elliott> fizzie: You should add a CGI script where you can submit queries to get results for!
22:32:45: <fizzie> I should. Or something interactive like that, anyway.
22:33:34: <elliott> It does surprisingly well for "Cthulhu".
22:33:42: <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, since when did you have such classy site design?
22:33:48: <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: IT'S HORRIFYING
22:33:50: <elliott> ZEM.FI HAS BEEN DESTROYED
22:33:57: <Phantom_Hoover> OMG A BIO
22:34:04: <elliott> fizzie: You should also make it output averages of all the thumbnails it uses!
22:34:10: <elliott> fizzie: With RGB *and* HSV!
22:34:16: <elliott> (Okay, some rescaling may be required.)
22:34:31: <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Since, like, one day ago, and elliott's been busily enumerating its many faults.
22:34:39: <zzo38> Is the program code for the gcolor available?
22:35:17: <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, dude, your bio doesn't even mention your favourite food.
22:35:19: <fizzie> zzo38: No :( :( but I'll try to put it somewhere reasonably soon.
22:35:42: <fizzie> Those upstart thecolorof.com "we don't have any parametric distributions at all" subhumans have it a lot more interactiver-er and flashy. :'(
22:35:44: <olsner> "Heikki Kallasjoki". officially, "fizzie"
22:35:54: <elliott> oerjan: out of curiosity, why aren't e.g. BitBitJump and Brainfuck abbreviated in the header of EsoInterpreters?
22:35:58: <zzo38> What programming language did you use to write it?
22:36:01: <olsner> you seem to have swapped the period and the comma in your bio
22:36:01: <fizzie> olsner: I think officially I'm now "null Kallasjoki".
22:36:21: <Phantom_Hoover> Good old nullsy.
22:36:24: <fizzie> zzo38: It's in Python, and it uses the Numpy package for the more mathematical parts.
22:36:31: <olsner> oh, you've changed your name recently?
22:36:44: <fizzie> olsner: My ISP graciously changed it for me.
22:36:58: <fizzie> (At least I assume so.)
22:37:26: <elliott> oerjan: (translation: in my rewrite of [[EsoInterpreter]]'s table, is there any reason to keep it like that?)
22:40:17: <oerjan> elliott: i'm a bit wary of that abbreviation in general...
22:40:31: <oerjan> but of course it makes it less wide
22:41:20: <oerjan> heh, maybe we should use vertical text for that instead ;P
22:41:35: <elliott> oerjan: that was what the original version did.
22:41:36: <elliott> (it was hideous.)
22:41:40: <elliott> well it used <br>s
22:41:44: <elliott> rotated text might work
22:41:48: <elliott> assuming it can be hovered over
22:42:02: <elliott> (it can be rotated with css)
22:43:32: <elliott> oerjan: (now I'm thinking that might be a good idea...)
22:43:34: <oerjan> i think i recently saw something about that, but i also read that it was one of things which strangely _only_ IE supported :P
22:43:41: <oerjan> iirc
22:43:48: <oerjan> but of course that may be outdated.
22:44:05: <oerjan> (read in the Wikipedia table help, i think)
22:44:31: <elliott> yes, it works cross-browser nowaday
22:44:31: <elliott> s
22:44:42: <elliott> what would be best is a slanted table heading, where the text is on a diagonal
22:44:48: <elliott> but CSS can't do things /that/ advanced, afaik
22:45:11: <olsner> transforms should let you rotate it any which way you want, I think
22:50:48: <elliott> olsner: yes, but the table headings need to line up properly
22:51:01: <elliott> they should attach to the top of the rows, and be "lined up" with each other
22:51:07: <elliott> hmm
22:51:21: <elliott> ok if I rotated the text to be vertical then rotated the whole th it could work
22:52:14: <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, why isn't there a web interface to gcolour
22:53:16: <elliott> I just proposed that
22:53:17: <elliott> you shithead
22:53:18: <elliott> fizzie: ban Phantom_Hoover
22:53:21: <elliott> :'(
22:56:54: <elliott> [[{{#if: {{User:ehird/sandbox/data|{{{1}}}|?article}} | {{User:ehird/sandbox/data|{{{1}}}|?article}} | {{User:ehird/sandbox/data|{{{1}}}|?name}} }} | {{User:ehird/sandbox/data|{{{1}}}|?name}}]]
22:57:00: <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: It takes eight minutes with my current "very polite" google-scripts, it's not exactly interactively-friendly, except maybe in a queue form. And the webserver probably doesn't have most of the things installed; I'm sure it doesn't have numpy. But yes, it's been proposed.
22:57:33: <olsner> write it in javascript, let it run on the user's computer instead?
22:57:44: <shachaf> elliott: Whoa, man, crazy esolang you've got there.
22:57:46: <elliott> oerjan: http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Ehird/sandbox/table
22:57:48: <elliott> close enough.
22:57:51: <olsner> on the *browser, I mean
22:58:12: <elliott> fizzie: I was imagining that there'd be a queue of requests-to-be-done that you could see, and if it's short enough you could add an entry.
22:58:27: <elliott> (After filling out a CAPTCHA to prevent bots making it useless, I suppose.)
22:58:29: <fizzie> olsner: That's one way, but then the results don't end up shared. And JavaScript doesn't run numpy either.
22:58:36: <elliott> Then a big (searchable?) list of requests it's already done.
22:59:01: <fizzie> (Admittely there's not *that* much of the math.)
22:59:02: <elliott> And of course if you entered something that's already been done into the box it'd just send you there. (Maybe with a "refresh" link to re-add it to the queue if it's more than a few months old.)
22:59:08: <elliott> (And you could store all the historical versions too!!!! The best.)
22:59:24: <fizzie> (Though I'm not sure if JavaScript Math has modified Bessel functions of the first kind.)
22:59:25: <olsner> fizzie: you can put the results on your server without putting all the work there
22:59:34: <fizzie> olsner: But then people could CHEAT.
22:59:43: <fizzie> Upload it full of RED.
23:00:11: <olsner> I'll upload it all chartreuse or thursday
23:00:24: <elliott> fizzie: Your month colours are surprisingly good.
23:00:52: <elliott> Apparently nostalgia = indifference.
23:00:59: <fizzie> elliott: "July" is the way it is because most (all?) of the images are for July 4th fireworks; and all February results are Valentine's day -related.
23:01:15: <elliott> Heh.
23:01:23: <elliott> fizzie: Your menu might want to be position: fixed.
23:01:35: <fizzie> That's very possible.
23:02:13: <fizzie> (I should probably be keeping a list of notes.)
23:02:15: <elliott> Also, do you really have rights to redistribute https://gist.github.com/2017454#file_d3des.c?
23:02:18: <elliott> * These changes are:
23:02:19: <elliott> * Copyright (C) 1999 AT&T Laboratories Cambridge. All Rights Reserved.
23:03:25: <fizzie> I think I saw something BSDy about it, but I see I have not reproduced the license bit.
23:03:38: <fizzie> (It's from some other VNC implementation, IIRC.)
23:05:18: <elliott> Okey, http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Ehird/sandbox/table now looks like a thing. Except that it doesn't ever omit columns/rows when it should.
23:05:28: <fizzie> I may have also forgotten to include d3des.h in the Gist.
23:05:38: <fizzie> By "may" I mean "".
23:05:47: <elliott> fizzie: Are you sure that thing -- with its full README and many files -- is really Gist's intended audience? :p
23:05:53: <elliott> I hear they have a larger version of Gists now, for actual projects.
23:06:20: <shachaf> elliott: It's not violating anyone's rights if it's just in a "Gist".
23:07:35: <elliott> shachaf: I think the Berne Convention begs to differ.
23:07:46: <elliott> (Also, "not having rights" =/= "violating someone's rights".)
23:08:12: <olsner> elliott: all the links go to example.com
23:08:36: <fizzie> Heh, same d3des.c with not much about the license (with no comments in the other licensing bits, except "Parts of QEMU have specific licenses which are compatible -- each source file contains its own licensing information") is in qemu's trunk.
23:08:41: <elliott> olsner: Yes, they do.
23:09:02: <elliott> fizzie: Better: Let Fabrice Bellard: know.
23:09:36: <olsner> elliott: are they supposed to do that!!?
23:09:58: <fizzie> Richard Outerbridge would be spinning in his grave if he knew. (And was dead. (Is he dead?))
23:10:10: <fizzie> "Outerbridge" sounds like a made-up name anyway!
23:10:29: <elliott> olsner: Yes.
23:10:32: <elliott> It's an example.com.
23:13:23: <Phantom_Hoover> http://wiki.lspace.org/wiki/File:Vimesmine.jpg
23:13:31: <Phantom_Hoover> Worst rendition of Vimes... ever?
23:27:34: <oerjan> <fizzie> Sorry, the E.ON energy company is my only mental association with 'eon'. <-- my mental association with 'eon' is a norwegian comic that's essentially a bloom county clone
23:30:43: <oerjan> the second main character introduced in it was God, btw
23:32:44: <oerjan> another nice character is a fundamentalist christian lady who keeps getting into battles with the main characters for their being heathen scum (and yes, that includes God)
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